It is tempting in the wake of the Panthers' 0-3 start to want to mess with the team in a dramatic way, as my colleague Tom Sorensen proposes today in his column advocating a trade of Steve Smith.
Now I’m all for messing with the Panthers – something needs to be done, for sure. But there are a couple of problems with that scenario:
1) Smith wouldn't bring nearly as much in trade value right now as he would have, say, four years ago. Remember his various injury problems and his age (31) and forget the idea that the Panthers would get multiple high picks for him. I’d guess at best they might get a second-rounder for Smith. I believe he’s worth more to Carolina now as the team’s biggest playmaking threat than he’d be worth elsewhere (although given this offense, I certainly wouldn’t blame Smith if he wanted to go elsewhere. Wouldn’t you if you were him?).
2) If the Panthers trade Smith, they’ll be even worse offensively and simply have to back-fill the position. I don’t much like the idea of David Gettis and Brandon LaFell starting, do you? And Dwayne Jarrett has been a huge bust. So the draft pick or picks that Smith brings – it might end up being spent yet again on wide receiver, since no one knows for sure yet if LaFell, Gettis or Armanti Edwards is going to work out long-term.
To me, it would make more sense to trade from a position of strength. The Panthers have a stable of three running backs that is the envy of the NFL. You’d have to do some contractual work with DeAngelo Williams to trade him, but Jonathan Stewart could be traded right now. He’s young, in his prime and certainly good enough to be the No.1 back at most places in the NFL (although Williams is a shade better). Mike Goodson is an adequate backup back. Trading Stewart would make more sense to me than Williams (assuming DeAngelo would get locked into a long-term deal in Charlotte) or, alternately, trading DeAngelo and keeping Stewart and Goodson. This would help break up the logjam at RB and could give the Panthers help where they need it most.
We're moving!
9 years ago
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46 comments:
Are you kidding me?!
We need to trade up in coaching personnel more than anything else. IF we had any thing remotely resembling a decent offensive coordinator there would be no need to even contemplate trading any part of our offense.
John Fox should have been fired 3 years ago. Can we please get Leslie Frazier in here?
Leslie Frazier is a defensive minded coach. So we will likely see the same borning and predictable run 1st, pass 2nd, and play good defense.
Get an offensive minded head coach.
I USED to think we needed an offensive coordinator when we had Henning, but seeing what he's done in Miami has convinced me that Fox was holding him back. Why wouldn't I think he does that with all his coaches? Fox is too conservative for today's NFL.
Steve Smith is and has been overrated for a very long time. Celebrating a 10 yard reception like most would a touchdown helps. They will not get much value for him but the Cats should get what they can. Trade both backs. Neither of them can carry this team. Their record will be equally as bad with them as without them. This team lacks the talent up front to justify keeping two backs like this. Rebuild the front, then go get a back. The Panthers will tailspin endlessly unless they stop listening to the fans. Fans can't make football decisions. No coach can win without an offensive line and Moore/Clausen as QB. It had no chance of ever working.
Stewart was the 13th pick in the draft several years ago. Do you really think you could get that back in return? Of course not. This is the most ridiculous suggestion from someone in the know. The Panthers have no business trading anybody. This year is lost and the blame falls squarely on the owner. He knew he'd have a lame duck coach and a young, inexperienced and very inexpensive team. He's planning for a lockout next year. As fans, we should stay supportive but ultimately should look to spend more Sunday time with the family. But trade Stewart is plain dumb.
Scott, I had that idea myself; however, we don't really know what we have until we get new coaches. I don't agree with your opinion on Jarrett. They have to let him play before we can decide he's a bust. Jarrett has been a prisoner of this coaching staff. Do you honestly believe that LaFell or Gettis are better than Jarrett right now?
We need to hire Charlie Weiss as our head coach at the end of the season and reunite him with Clausen. Jack Del Rio will also be available at the end of the year; we could hire him to reprise his defensive coordinator role with the Panthers.
If Charlie W couldn't succeed in college, what makes people think he will succedd at the nfl level?
He is at best an offensive coordinator. Jack D, now I would consider bringing him back.
If we trade Smitty, we will have zero big playmaking threats. We lost Peppers and made our defense even less threatening to opposing offenses which is why teams have been tearing them up. It'll be sad to see them break up our runningback stable, however it makes more sense then to lose the biggest threat we have on offense considering our running game is just not what it was last year--I blame the line.
Point Counterpoint
Fowler vs Sorenson
Featherweight bout of the week.Who wins?
Sorenson gets the edge becuz Smith is washed up. He had a few ok seasons but hes busted all up and scared to take a hit now.
Smith could however either be a waterboy or try out for cheering although the girls might be too rough and slap him around so he better stick to waterboy.
How hard is it to stop this running game now? Its been very easy to me.
With no offensive threats at the receivers position, it will be the same. Stop Double trouble and Smith and you basically won the game.
The Oline can't block the safties, corners, and linebackers at the same time. Maybe if they have an extra TEnd and Rb beside Clausen. It would help or to throw a screen pass.
I wonder if Smith was putting up elite number elsewhere. Would we hear how washed up he is?
Or how stupid the organization is trading the best play maker on the team?
Lmao on Smith having ok season over the past 4 years. Maybe if this team had a stable QB, with creative play calling.
He could put up good numbers.
I would certainly trade Smith before I'd trade either member of Double Trouble... Smith is on the downside of his career and only has a few years left. Our backs should remain the strength going forward since our primary offense is RUNNING THE FOOTBALL. If we could get a first for Smitty, I'd pull the trigger. Second rounder? I'd think about it really hard.
I would just trade Smith as a favor for years of service. So he wouldn't have to ride the Titanic that is the Panthers. Trade him to a Playoff contender with a real QB and play making threats.
Exactly what I was going to say in response to Soreson's column before I read this. Stewart is my choice to trade. Why did EVERYONE know we needed a receiver but the top brass?
The idea of trading any of our good players makes absolutley no sense. We suck bad enough as is and trading a sure thing(stewart) for some rookie that could be a bust is stupid. Quit throwing out stupid ideas just to get back some response.JOhnny Evans i know your reading this.
I will admit that trading one of our RBs makes more sense then trading our only reciever.
As I have been saying since the end of last year, you could bring in Joe Montana and Jerry Rice in their prime and they would get whipped every game just like the team we have now. Our O-line is PATHETIC!!!! They are the worst I have seen in the NFL in alot of years. Our management/ownership are next in the line of broken things. Other than those, we are ok. Well maybe the bad D, the inept special teams, and well back to that coaching thing...
12-4 Mr. Bernz? How is that prediction looking now dumb azz???
Come on guys, the problem is not any of the coaches or the players. The problem is the owner.
You can't win if you keep letting the best players on your roster go. The problem is the age of our ENTIRE roster and the owner not willing to pay to field a competitive team.
They say they are building through the draft, but that is just a line used to keep the tickets sold. Fact is that the last time we had a great pick, we took Peppers and he just so happened to turn out to be great. We you hit a home run as a team trying to build thru the draft, you don't let that home run walk unless there is no other choice.
Fox realizes that the Big Cat won't pay to win, so that is why we are going to lose him too. The only acceptable replacement to me would Meeks.
BTW Scott, great idea. Trading J Stew for a solid DT or rush end plus a 3rd or 4th rounder would be great.
Obviously we are rebuilding. Trade Steve Smith and Jonathan Stewart. Not at the same time. For Steve wait until a contender, needs a receiver due to injury. Not sure about Jonathan's best value, before or after the lockout. Tough times ahead for Clausen and Moore. Draft picks and youth please. I look forward to the future. You know already that Fox will be part of the Change.
This team will never change as long as John Fox is coaching!
The current Panther situation is not a player problem. It is a management problem! How could all of those smart folks up there with all of their big money and brains allow this team to sink so low? Imagine if a sales manager were to hire new reps that have never sold a thing before, stuck a sack of goods under their arms and said "now go win me that sales trophy". On offense, the Panthers only have two stars. One is not going to be effective unless they put a red light on his helmet, the other won't be unless unless they occasionly get inside the 40! If the Panthers are to win a game this year, it will be because of defense and special teams. Unfortunately, the NFL is all about putting offensive points on the board and plenty of them! I guess JP saw it written on the wall!
Pickles Doesn't look for Smith now. He is laser focused on Goodson or Gettis. Smith should be moved for whatever we can get. It would even be OK to trade him and a RB. Let's stockpile draft picks this year and keep rebuilding with youth. It will hurt now but the future is bright.
John Fox has got to go first. Now. Now! This team could be good with a decent coach.
Leave Steve Smith alone. Trade one of the RB's (Stewart) and get a veteran QB. The Panthers problem starts with Fox and the front office. When Delhomme was the QB, no one bothered to groom the younger QB's under him. Now that Clausen or Moore are the starters, no one in the front office went out in the off-season to pick up a veteran QB, so it all starts upstairs. Or release somebody on the roster and sign a veteran QB like Dante Culpepper out of the UFL. It just doesnt make sense with the talk of trading our biggest offensive threat, when we dont have a QB who can get him the ball. There's still 13 weeks left and I'm not giving up on my Panthers!
What happends if Williams was to get hurt? Do you want Mike G to be his back up?
Draft picks sounds good and all, but it also is a hit or miss. But knowing this fan base, they will start bitching when Stewart is traded.
By saying why did they trade him in the 1st place.
Why trade Stewart for a veteran QB? Who even suck or is another back up at best? Thats the dumbest thing I ever heard.
Carolina should have signed Mac B while he was a FA. They also should have drafted Cam T, who fell in the 5th round as well.
It truly amazes me the depth of idiocy in America. Let's look at the positives... Steve Smith (an elite WR that soaks up a double team everyplay), Double Trouble (2 1100 yard rushers last year), and a "decent" o-line that is missing a key cog in Jeff Otah. Clausen is young and has potential, but if he is constantly on his back because he holds the ball too long, what good is he? What the team needs is some creativity on offense. Some plays that are made specifically for the talent and situation we are dealing with. Instead Fox is trying to force a square peg into a round hole!
Fox is the answer! Jerry Richardson is also the answer, because he left Fox on for the season. How is a team truly going to rebuild when they are running a system that (odds are) will not be in place next season? Answer, it won't.
So, NO! We don't trade Smith, Williams or Stewart. We get healthy and get rid of Fox! Coaching on ANY level is about being able to cater the team you have to beat the competition. All the greats have done this and Fox is either too stupid or too stubborn.
As for the person that said we haven't had a great pick since Peppers... really? Are you that dense?
How about a new head coach, offensive coordinator, qb coach, and offensive line instead? Scott, you are way off base here.
My vote would be to trade Smitty to a flag football team for a guy with a good attitude and no thug tendencies.
Instead of trading the best player in panther history why dont we trade that cheap, greedy, senile old man Jerry Richardson to another team for a REAL owner that wants to win! But lets not stop there....we need to trade that joke of a talent evaluator Marty Hurney for a GM that wont trade away 1st and 2nd round picks for a useless undersized DE or a QB that will become a WR 20 years from now.
Logan mankins, all-pro guard is sitting at home, Stewart for mankins? How to get 10 in the box, standard pro set, send your receiver in IN motion to the T or TE, now there is 9 or 10 in box (we do it all the time)or put in 3 receivers, but bunch them within 4 yards of tackle and then ask them to run block (um, we have done this numerous times this year). We also have somehow become position blockers versus true power zone, etc. also Williams and Stewart, while great, aren't always in key positions to maximize zone blocking - which one principle of zone is 2 on 1 at point of contact, take defender where they want to go, and slip on blocker off to second level. RB must keep shoulders (as they control head and head direction of eyes)square so they can see the cutback lanes, our backs are so good they actually eventually make cutback, run thru two tacklers and pick up yards, but many times, if they only had better fundamentals, they would see the cutback lane (so there have been many no gainers that are actually the RB's faults for not seeing there reads - yes RB do have reads in blocking schemes. Our patterns are quite like old veer offenses of the 70's, single routes, IT DOES NOT MATER WHO #2 RECEVIER IS we rarely run companion routes, rarely run scissors and or rub or snag or pick type routes, we rarely have 2 or 3rd receiver with Welker type in out or out in routes opening late over middle with space to run. Defensively, we can't seem to cover a misdirection to the flat, a bootleg to weakside or strongside flat, we've been killed (2 straight times leading to TD vs bengals) it is time for a new staff, Head coach, OC, QB coach, and RB coach for sure.
Face it folks, we are the victims of an owner whose primary loyalty is to the league, not his team or its fans. Jerry Richardson has a point to prove to his fellow owners and he is sacrificing the Panthers season to make his point.
Smith is damaged goods.
The white shirt may hide the cast so defenses cant see it but its too late.
Its all over but the crying. No trade value either.
Smith could become a reciever coach but his playing days are over.
If I had to play behind a O-Line Like any running back or quarterback has to do as a Panthers ,I would fake a injury as the great O-line Fake trying to block.......This team is bad because it is what you see.....
I'm a Panther fan, but I have to admit that I was a little sad on Sunday. In previous years it seemed as though we were a coach and a quarterback away from AT LEAST the playoffs. Now it truly feels like a rebuilding year..right before the lockout.
Its disappointing that we got rid of some of the players that we did, but why aren't our names ever mentioned when it comes to going after big talent. I understand that many of us want that golden boy who grew up on a farm throwing footballs through tires and goes to church every sunday and Wed., but lets be honest. What superbowl caliber team is made up of only golden boys and no names who were diamonds in the rough? I understand all of you soccer moms and dads out there are going to throw rocks at me, but why not Vick and T.O.? Will we be proud of our moral compass when we see Vick in the NFC championship? Are Eagles fans complaining about Vick's past right now? Nope. I'm not advocating just for Vick. I'm advocating for big talent that isn't necessarily home grown and of perfect character. Steve Smith punched a couple of guys on his team. There are guys in the NFL who have killed people. Get real, to those that call Smith a thug.
We have one proven WR and two great running backs which I think we should keep together. If forced to make a choice, I would also prefer to trade a running back, a quarterback, and some cash for a solid veteran quarterback.Steve Smith should sue John Fox for burning years of the peak of his career on below average and rookie quarterbacks who will take years to even learn how to utilize a high caliber WR.
Did we really burn our #1 pick on a defensive end and not banking it for a trade for a big name quarterback in his prime. Why is it so laughable for the Panthers to go after a Donovan McNabb, when he was on the market or other high level player?
Trade Jeff Davidson for Charlie Weis, hmmm?
"I would also prefer to trade a running back, a quarterback, and some cash for a solid veteran quarterback".
Really? You would trade 2 players andcash for a veteran QB? Who is or was probably a back up Qb throughout his career or hasn't seen playing time.
Thats the dumbest shit I ever heard of. Hey how about trade Beason, Kalil, Williams and some cash for a veteran QB as well. Lmfao.
@ F-Mr.Bernz said... , HAHAHA How does it feel to be punked out of your name & into mine like 1 of my little chickies?
Fox needs to GO !... Bring in Bill Cowher.... Fox is right we need a spark.... a spark at Head Coach !
I agree. No team needs two Pro Bowl quality running backs. Move one and get a Pro Bowl quality player at a position where you have a hole.
We need David Carr!!!
this is stupid, stupid, stupid. you trade smith, i guarntee you that this team goes 1-15, or worse, 0-16. i mean, at the very least, he's a threat, even if he never gets the ball. he opens things for the offense, and if you trade him, if i'm on the other team, i load NINE in the box and dare gettis, jarrett, or lafell to get open. there goes the running game.
or, how about trading jonathan stewart, who is in the prime of his career? yeah, trade away a 13th overall pick from just 2 seasons ago and see if you can get a 1st rounder in the top 15 for him.
it's obvious that this was a rebuilding/throwaway year for carolina this year. but, if you go around trading your only threat in the passing game, or break up the best tandem of running backs in the nfl, then what does that say about NEXT year or the years to come?
trading deangelo williams, who's remained realtively healthy his career, and you're stuck with a cross your fingers situation with stewart's heel and stewart having to carry to load. goodson is a 3rd down back at best and fumble prone at worst.
yeah, this season will be bad, but let's not turn into the oakland raiders, st. louis rams, or detroit lions where we'll have a bad team for years. spend some money once the lockout is over/avoided next offseason with cash you've saved this year, and this carolina team can be a contender.
DON'T TRADE SMITH, DON'T TRADE WILLIAMS, and DON'T TRADE STEWART. unless, you really want to see 1-15 football again...
Instead of trading the best player in panther history why dont we trade that cheap, greedy, senile old man Jerry Richardson to another team for a REAL owner that wants to win! But lets not stop there....we need to trade that joke of a talent evaluator Marty Hurney for a GM that wont trade away 1st and 2nd round picks for a useless undersized DE or a QB that will become a WR 20 years from now.
Instead of trading the best player in panther history why dont we trade that cheap, greedy, senile old man Jerry Richardson to another team for a REAL owner that wants to win! But lets not stop there....we need to trade that joke of a talent evaluator Marty Hurney for a GM that wont trade away 1st and 2nd round picks for a useless undersized DE or a QB that will become a WR 20 years from now.
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